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It's about time we'd started treating this as what it is: data theft and stalking. Did they actually do that to ThinkPads, or was it the much cheaper "consumer" IdeaPad line that had it?

I seem to remember it was the latter. LeifCarrotson 24 days ago root parent next [—]. I have rarely seen the concept expressed in such a clear, direct manner. I am a long time Wacom customer and this pisses me off too.

I will certainly be trying out alternative brands in future. How about organizing an open source hackfest for alternative tablet brands? Can a pihole be used to stop tracking? There is unofficial open source driver for tablet from these brands. Just replaced official drivers with it, and it solved an issue I had with my Wacom on KiCad! Some are Chinese, some are Taiwanese or Japanese. There's nothing wrong with hardware from China per-se.

The local market is Windows-centric though which means drivers for other platforms often suck or don't exist. To sidestep this, open source can solve the bad-actor-driver issues and we can all get cheaper hardware. Wacom isn't American either it's Japanese, and its products are also made in China; quite possibly by the same OEMs. It doesn't stop ipv6 because those are universal. And things can be hardcoded. KerryJones 24 days ago parent prev next [—]. I came here to say the exact same thing.

It is becoming harder and harder to troubleshoot which apps talk what to which servers because all off them, including OS, talk something all the time. Back in the day if user told me they have a problem accessing some Internet content I would instruct them to close all the applications and start to dump their traffic on firewall and proxy. There wouldn't be any traffic from their IP address. Then, when they started the application I would see if traffic goes through proxy or directly through firewall, and make adjustments, like putting destination domain on an exclusion list in proxy or destination ip and port on an exclusion list in firewall.

Nowadays, Windows 10 without any applications started sends hundreds of requests per minute to dozens of IPs. Something respects global proxy settings, something not. I guess Android is even worse. Protip: you can configure Windows Firewall to block all outbound traffic on a per-process basis. This is even more true in the case of intentional privacy violations by software vendors.

The responsible thing is to immediately put these companies on blast the moment this kind of spying is uncovered. I do see your point, but I still think a standardised way to at least make sure the vendor is aware of the issue would be needed if we're talking about a formal program. Not necessarily holding off publishing to do so though. But I don't mean to back the side of vendors unduly here What ethical issue do you see? What is there to responsibly disclose? Software vendors do this on purpose; they don't need notification.

I must admit I didn't put much thought into my comment on ethics but I guess what I had in mind is perhaps a scenario where the behaviour is not actually intentional, and the vendor should at least be properly informed that there may be leakage to them of private data as opposed to just jumping straight to blogging about it. I don't mean to dilute the core of the idea though, it's a good one, and it definitely needs to be geared towards being in favour of the consumer rather than letting the vendor off the hook.

I don't understand why that would be important. The only value in responsible disclosure is protection of users. If you figure out there's a way to harm a boatload of people, it's nice to do what you can to ensure it can't happen before telling everybody how.

It makes sense. But there's a very good reason it comes with a not-too-distant deadline before you give up on it. But this? We're talking about finding ways that people are being actively harmed. How does "responsible disclosure" come into play here? The only thing it would seem to do is to protect companies and their bad decisions. That's not the point. At best they've screwed up, and at worst they're actively malicious. How do users not deserve to know that they are being harmed as soon as possible?

How do potential users not deserve to know that they will be harmed by using the product, and that the company is either doing a poor job of protecting them or actively trying to exploit them?

There's no reason to try to attach any ideas of "responsible disclosure" here unless you're explicitly trying to protect the vendor. Responsible disclosure was the wrong term to use. The distinction I was trying to draw is rather than just blogging about it or unleashing a Twitter storm and jumping straight to an adversarial public crucifixion of the vendor and by all means do that as well , there should be a standardised process of also contacting that vendor directly and engaging with them to give them an opportunity to fully understand what is being reported, reproduce the issue in the case of it being unexpected and fixing the problem.

Some issues will hit Hacker News or gain visibility in other ways, but other issues that are published may not naturally reach the eyes of someone at a vendor unless the person publishing actually takes steps to contact them.

Not suggesting any of that is a prerequisite to publishing anything publicly in parallel. Not only is this kind of technical user rare, but public response to a post like this is also demonstrably rare.

Of the people who read this, only a fraction will consider changing their configuration to stop Wacom from sending this data. Incentives are well aligned for a corporation to just try it. I think we all as the end users could use a bit more support in terms of getting access to good information on configuring all the things we might use, being able to make better and more effective choices overall.

For example, one thing that jumped to mind was we seem to be lacking any objective measures of the speed of various OS versions, so everybody is always upgrading and claiming its faster, but is it objectively faster every time? What kind of regressions might happen? There's nobody that is spending the time figuring out this kind of information, so everyone is kind of uninformed and there's more pressure to always upgrade. As much as I struggle to personally get behind crypto, this is exactly the sort of motivating use case that DAOs decentralized autonomous organizations are intending to solve.

User would pool their crypto currency, gaining voting rights in the process, researchers can submit to the pool to collect a bounty and members of the DAO get the opportunity to vote on bounty release.

Currently crypto seems to generally tend towards oligarchic growth, so I imagine you'd have a few players that control most of the shares and many people controlling negligible portions. Perhaps these issues not to mention the energy costs can be solved, but right now I'm curious but skeptical about these ideas.

I really like the bounty idea. There are tons of highly skilled and wealthy folks in the HN community, who are upset about issues such as privacy in tech, poor security in public sector organizations utilities, education , etc. With some good, informal, leadership, we could put the community's resources to good use and help solve these problems. Folks who don't see meaning in their regular jobs could find contributing their skill or money to this and similar projects fulfilling and rewarding.

Sadly, I have neither money nor leadership skills! The sad thing about this is that there are perfectly valid reasons for Wacom to want certain information, like what hardware do their customers connect the drawing tablets to, what operating systems and applications do they use. This is useful information to have, in the sense that Wacom can choose where to put their resources, what applications to test for, etc. But the very fact they are so damned sneaky about it makes it look really shady.

Why not openly ask the users those questions and show them what information would be sent to the vendor? And I am pretty sure Wacom is but one of many companies behaving this way. I vaguely recall using some applications built-in crash report a couple of years ago, and it was a explicitly opt-in, and b showed me after asking me if I wanted to see it , verbatim, the data it was going to send to the vendor, including stack trace and stuff like that, and then asked me again if I wanted to send that crash report.

Unfortunately, I do not recall what software that was, though. Then lots of people would willingly help, fill in surveys, test configurations, write feedback, etc. This is why I reject the counter arguments "Your data is why X service is free" or "If you're not paying for it, you are the product".

Even when we are paying for something, we're still getting spied on. It's capitalism. Every potential revenue stream will be exploited to its fullest potential.

To show similar growth to their shareholders, they'd have to charge you more, so you're data is still paying for X. No need to pay money even. Just ask the customers: "what applications are you using our product for?

If you offer cash to customers then you are setting yourself up to receive reviews primarily from those who are in need of cash or have "spare" time. A person employed full-time who uses their tablet daily may be missed entirely. I don't see any valid reason for Wacom to look at what application people use. And in a proper operating system that information should not be easily available not without the users' consent.

There is a valid reason, which is custom configuration for each application. How you want a tablet to act in Blender is likely not the same as you would want in Photoshop. A lot of mice do the same thing. Once the user has agreed to that valid use-case, there's not a lot the OS can do to stop the data being logged permanently. Doing that locally is perfectly fine; it's the surprising act of sending it over the network which isn't acceptable. That can be handled quite well by local customization.

Igelau 24 days ago root parent prev next [—]. The author oversimplified by calling it "essentially a mouse".

Pressure sensitivity is arguably the main feature that distinguishes a drawing tablet from just being a pen-shaped mouse. It's understandable that they might want to know what applications it's being used in so they can make sure that it works. But they really could do that in a less shitty way. Any examples for those proper OSes? I can only imagine those often critized for being walled gardens, namely iOS, Android, and proprietary hardware like gaming consoles.

On any UNIX used as a desktop, you will not have trouble finding a list of running processes. It's essentially VMs around every application, browser instance or service.

And that has what market share amongst wacom tablet users? Market share describes what state the world is in. Windows and macOS followed years later. The need to know what art applications to test their product against and what hardware configurations they might need to write drivers for.

Its important to know how to allocate their testing resources. They could ask permission first but this sort of telemetry is a nothingburger in my opinion, as unpopular as that might be on this forum. It's called consent and it's not up to Wacom to decide that I will think it is a nothing burger. That's the whole point of consent: some people give it, others withhold it. You are just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine and that is why they should ask, it's not that you get to decide for me that it's a nothing burger, just like I won't decide for you that it isn't.

You consented when you ran their drivers to use the hardware, just like you consent to being recorded on CCTV when you enter a shop or stop at a gas station. Don't like it? Read the privacy policy for software you run. That, or you can write or rely on libre drivers for the tablet to run on your specific hardware setup.

Well, or as an alternative, we could regulate the collection, retention, and use of data by applications. Or are you saying that any driver I install on my machine is equal to my consenting that the driver's author can collect whatever data they want?

I'm sure its mentioned in the privacy policy or else Wacom's legal team is completely incompetent. With the keyword being informed. Hence my comment on the privacy policy statement. I'm sure its included with the tablet, or Wacom's lawyers are completely incompetent. This, and not only that - i use my tablet instead of a mouse for everything, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, and there's a few annoying things about that which could potentially be fixed if Wacom realizes we do this.

The pressure sensitivity gets in the way of a lot of things like selecting files in explorer for example. But yeah please ask for permission Wacom, even fucking Google does that when you are first setting up Android. For art, probably neither actually. Something like Krita or Clip Studio Paint is more likely for drawing. Plenty of artists I know personally use Photoshop with tablets, and a few use clip studio or sai. Probably depend on the circles you know. Lev1a 24 days ago parent prev next [—].

IIRC correctly Steam has a yearly? Well the collection part is transparent so there is no privacy issue but they don't disclose how and how ofthen they select participants or even how many participants there were for each survey. Because for the data to be useful even for totally benign purposes, it probably can't be collected just once. For example, the biggest signal I would try to extract for product purposes is users who open an app, try using the pen, and then give up and continue using it with the mouse instead.

You can't get that information by collecting information at install time. Could you write a trigger in the driver to detect this, and only ask for consent then? Probably not, since that gives you only the numerator without a denominator. Now, if they really aren't asking at all, that is shady. But asking just once rather than on every interaction seems basically mandatory to get the data needed for product development.

Mozilla products used to do this, but I don't think they do anymore. Sindisil 25 days ago root parent prev next [—]. Most Linux distributions have a similar mechanism. You need to explicitly manually check and confirm a full crash dump before sending it, so really not anything being done without the user knowing, at least on Fedora.

There is a myth that if you are a paying customer then you are not a product. As we see, for more and more companies like Wacom, Microsoft or Apple you are a product no matter if you pay or not. Have some self respect and vote with your wallet against such companies. Someone 25 days ago parent next [—]. It's not true anyway, because of FOSS. There are also services that exist to provide a social good without a profit motive; that's why nonprofit designations exist.

So is it "with proprietary software you're always the product, but some offer you to pay for the privilege"? Do Wacom tablets have any relevant competition? I have one that I use for hobbyist purposes and when it comes time to upgrade I'd be interested in not buying another Wacom. Huions are pretty great.

Very affordable and very high quality. I'm guessing the premium you pay for Wacom has more to do with the brand name than the actual product. I'm not a professional artist though, so maybe Huions are bad for pro work.

Idk, but I'm happy with my Huion. I spent a few years with a Huion screen tablet GT series , but pressure sensitivity response was really bad compared to a Cintiq. For a hobbyist it is a really much better choice than the cheap Wacom e. Bamboo line , because it is important to have a big drawing area, so that you can draw from your elbow and not from your wrist.

The various Chinese tablets are much more involved to get running on Linux, if possible at all. Also, being fully open source I don't think the Linux Wacom drivers do any of the shady stuff the Windows ones apparently do. I only use Linux and indeed, drivers work OOtB and don't require you to sign any privacy policy.

Although you don't have the fancy GUI that they have on Windows. Given that Huion is headquartered in Shenzhen, I'm skeptical that the privacy aspect will be much better.

It's much better when the company focuses on the hardware and doesn't have the aspirations to turn into a spyware-driven "cloud-first" megacorp. As well as procreate, an iPad can act as an external display for a Mac - and when connected, the Apple Pencil works as a stylus in macos applications. And macos only. If you're a product, then there is simply a bigger paying customer.

Companies are ever tending towards surveillance capitalism because the profit the marketplace for personal information provides them potentially far outweighs the profits of mere direct sales. Withdrawing your business from such a company will achieve very little so long as they still have some user data in the bank.

Participating in surveillance capitalism provides a great competitive edge at first, but the race to the bottom makes it a necessary component of conducting business. If Wacom simply needs to sell customers' session data to stay afloat, a not-wacom that expressly refuses to do the same probably won't stay in business for long on just sales. They would need some other revenue source, in crowdfunding, venture capital, SaaS, advertisements, a corporate buyout, government or military contract, renting and franchising, anything.

Save for crowdfunding, these kinds of alternate revenue sources serve to tap into the lion's share of currency consumers don't hold. Incredibly inequal wealth distribution prevents money from functioning like a distributed democratic force. No matter you are paying or not. JKCalhoun 25 days ago prev next [—]. I never thought I would want a "walled garden" on my desktop, but these shit software stacks that companies are integrating into their products are forcing me to want to fight back to lock down my machine.

I would love a simple utility that could not only neatly encapsulate and display the data being sent from my machine out on the network but also allow me to merely check a box to block that traffic.

A smart initial config of course would "allow list" the usual web traffic from my browser s , mail traffic from my mail client, etc. I don't want to mess with proxies, don't want to have to block ports using a command-line tool or by wading through my router config. Maybe I am asking for too much. Does Little Snitch not meet your needs there?